All but getting out of Super 8

[Sparky]

The milliken and locam high speed cameras both have pin registration but they are for 2R film, don't take mags, are a pain to thread and heavy and basic and and...
But they have really beautiful mechanisms and can be found fairly cheap these days.

Mark

[Alex]

I'm curious if you ever tried the "advancing the cartridge spindle technique" with your feature film cartridges that ended up being jittery when you shot your movie. I'm not saying for sure that lubrication was the only problem, but if you have never test advanced a cartridge spindle that moves smoothly but THEN you had jitter issues anyway, I think you're jumping the gun.

If there is a way to know before shooting a cartridge that it may have a problem (by seeing how smoothly the cartridge spindle advances), then it's possible to know what cartridges are bad and which ones are good BEFORE actually shooting with them.

Well it's doubtful - so a) why take the risk and b) even if you could tell there's still going to be time and money wasted - you're taking pot luck on somethng that's not reliable

Scot

How can something you haven't tried be "doubtful". If the cartridge does not move smoothly, return it to Kodak.

Imagine you are a gunfighter in the old West and as you load your six bullets into your gun's chamber two of the bullets do not go in smoothly, they have to be forced and still do not go in smoothly.

What would you do next?

[greenplastic79]

Is it possible that freezing carts negatively affects their performance?

[Nigel]

Scot has his reasons for wanting to leave S8 and I think he is making the right choice. He is still going to keep a camera and I am sure he will shoot off a few rolls from time to time. It seems obvious that S8 doesn't give him what he wants or needs.

It is that simple.

Good Luck

[Alex]

Scot has his reasons for wanting to leave S8 and I think he is making the right choice. He is still going to keep a camera and I am sure he will shoot off a few rolls from time to time. It seems obvious that S8 doesn't give him what he wants or needs.

It is that simple.

Good Luck

If you don't follow all of the logical procedures for Super-8, no point in moving up a class, is there? Checking the cartridge for film transport smoothness isn't being done by most super-8 users, so that critical data is not available for making a "logical" choice.

What's left is an emotional choice based on a bad experience, but could that bad experience have been avoided?

Has anyone actually advanced a film cartridge spindle, found it to be perfectly smooth, and then had jitter issues anyway? Until that test is done, it's just emotion that's taking Scot over.

[T-Scan]

everybody knows that super 8 is *never* rock solid.

True if you consider the start or end of a roll, where you have breathing, wobbling ect... I sat back and reviewed an hour of S-8 neg transfer last night, and with the exception of the first or last 5 seconds of a few carts, the frame held solid. The only jitter problem on my last transfer was 16mm shot at 64fps R16, no cartridge to blame there. Most projectors are crap too, I dig through 5 bad ones before I find a good one. I can go blind trying to spot jitter from one of my NOS Canons... these were stored unused in original plastic and foam untill I got them. Roger has even mentioned how "rock solid" images from the 70's were shot on "el cheapo" cameras. I think jitter is just a sign of mechanical pittfall in these old beasts.

[tlatosmd]

Speaking of breathing and jitter at start and end of carts...did any of you actually come across *flickering* at the start of a cart?

There's one in about 50-100 carts I've shot so far that had this. Daylight scene, K40, it starts with a noticeable flicker in projection, then suddenly, after about 2-5 seconds, CHUNK!, the flicker is gone as if someone pushed a button or something. It sure as heck wasn't me pushing anything but my cam's trigger.

[Scotness]

How can something you haven't tried be "doubtful". If the cartridge does not move smoothly, return it to Kodak.

Imagine you are a gunfighter in the old West and as you load your six bullets into your gun's chamber two of the bullets do not go in smoothly, they have to be forced and still do not go in smoothly.

What would you do next?

It's doubtful because you don't even know if it works yourself - this is why you're suggesting I try it rather than telling me it will solve the problem. My point is why take that risk - someone else can be the guinea pig :lol:

If you don't follow all of the logical procedures for Super-8, no point in moving up a class, is there?

What does this mean? - I'm too dumb to try 16mm?? :lol: Maybe I'm too smart to stick with Super 8

If the advancing it works great - I'm happy for everyone - if you've never got jitter I'm happy for you too - I hope your luck stays up

I'm jsut saying I've been badly burnt - there's still a cloud there over Super 8 - there are unsure suggestions of how to overcome it - and I'm moving to something more sure and reliable - simple as that

I'm not wishing anyone ill - I really hope everythng works out for you - as I hope it does for me with shooting serious projects on 16 instead of S8

Scot

[Scotness]

BTW I got an email from John P after I emailed him yesterday and he said that that Kodak France think the problems from 2001 have been dealt with and the current problem could be from a totally different cause - which may well be true - and they want examples of carts to look at that are unfinished - not the film that after it has been developed.

So if you've got a weird sounding or performing cart I would reccomend you first try Alex's spindle advance method - and put it back in - and if it still doesn't sound or seem to perform right - then pull it out as is and get in touch with John and get it sent off to France for analysis.

By doing this you will contribute to hopefully solving the problem - which is all a very good thing to do - but surely you can see why I don't want to go through this in the middle of shooting a feature?! Hence why I'm leaving Super 8 for anything serious.

Scot

[MovieStuff]

This has nothing to do with transfer. We are talking about radical jumpiness of the image relative to the sprocket holes.

not trying to imply anything, but is the pulldown claw of your transfer projectors in the same place as in the camera?

No but that is irrelevant because

A) All indications are that the perfs are dead on, otherwise, the sprocket hole next to the gate (4 positions away) would be visibly dancing and it is always solid, even on film that has massive displacement of the image.

B) Footage shot on a Scoopic that has its claw about 4-5 positions AFTER the gate is always solid

and most importantly

C) We are talking about actual "jitter" where the frame is vertically displaced by 15-20% and actually overlaps onto the next frame rapidly and randomly. As I mentioned, this is the sort of thing that you can see with a lupe, even without projection, and it appears regardless of what projector you are running it on. It has nothing to do with any transfer or projection process because it is built into the film.

To be clear: When I say "jitter" I mean "jitter", not just an annoying breathing of the image due to display mechanics. Can we not rehash the old claw placement issue again? Jitter was evident long before I ever started selling telecine units and Scot most certainly did not transfer "In My Image" on a WorkPrinter or Sniper. Jitter is a camera/cart problem. Not a display problem.

Roger

[Alex]

How can something you haven't tried be "doubtful". If the cartridge does not move smoothly, return it to Kodak.

Imagine you are a gunfighter in the old West and as you load your six bullets into your gun's chamber two of the bullets do not go in smoothly, they have to be forced and still do not go in smoothly.

What would you do next?

It's doubtful because you don't even know if it works yourself - this is why you're suggesting I try it rather than telling me it will solve the problem. My point is why take that risk - someone else can be the guinea pig :lol:
Scot

Wait a minute, you are the one openly condemning Kodak even though it's possible you could have taken a very simple step to avoid the problem. I would say you are more of a guinea pig by filming the way that you did, by filming without first advancing the film spindle at all before shooting.

If you don't follow all of the logical procedures for Super-8, no point in moving up a class, is there?

What does this mean? - I'm too dumb to try 16mm?? :lol:

Since you figured that out, then you've obviously not dumb.

Maybe I'm too smart to stick with Super 8
Scot

Well, you are smart to not continue doing it the way you did it before, but why completely condemn the format when you didn't try the cartridge spindle advance technique.

If the advancing works, great - I'm happy for everyone - if you've never got jitter I'm happy for you too - I hope your luck stays up.

But there may be a way to not have it be up to luck, a way you did not try, so why publicly condemn a format if there was a way to do a simple cartridge check?

I'm just saying I've been badly burnt - there's still a cloud there over Super 8 - there are unsure suggestions of how to overcome it - and I'm moving to something more sure and reliable - simple as that

Again, it's a very simple procedure to follow, advancing the cartridge spindle to make sure the film is moving smoothly.

I'm not wishing anyone ill - I really hope everythng works out for you - as I hope it does for me with shooting serious projects on 16 instead of S8.

You took Super-8 as serious as 16mm, you just never tried the most simple of possible solutions, it's possible that you might have avoided the problem in the first place.

Hey If I'm proven to be wrong, then we all will have learned, but to condemn without trying doesn't seem approriate.

[MovieStuff]

If you don't follow all of the logical procedures for Super-8, no point in moving up a class, is there? Checking the cartridge for film transport smoothness isn't being done by most super-8 users, so that critical data is not available for making a "logical" choice.

But the point is that one did not have to check the film transport in carts back in the 60s and 70s to get good results. I shot hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of carts back then and never had a single one give me problems. I, like every other person shooting super 8, used the medium as it was originally designed: I opened the cart, stuck it in the camera and started shooting. I recall no instructions from Kodak, Agfa, Focal, GAF (or anyone else making super 8 ) that said you had to turn the core or fiddle with the carts before using them. If you are saying that you have to do that now, then that is just more proof that something has changed in the quality of the cart manufacturing.

Roger

[al77]

in Super8 recent K40 always looks less stable than tri-x to me. even when shot in the same cameras on the same day. and while i have experience a couple of tri-x carts jamming, once they were freed up, shot & processed they looked as stable as any other tri-x (except for the few frames where the cart jammed) & definately more stable than the K40 shot on the same day.

So, while i think you can tell if a cart is likely to jam by checking how easily the spindle turns, i think K40 generally does look more unstable than tri-x even with carts that don't jam.

[Sparky]

According to SMPTE 159.1-2001:

4.2 Af ter disengagement of any core antibackup
device, the cartridge shall operate with
a nominal torque of 0.85 ounce-force inch with
a permissible range of 0.5 ozf×in to 1.5 ozf×in
(6.0 ´ 10-3 newton meters with a permissible
range of 3.5 ´ 10-3 N×m to 10.6 ´ 10-3 N×m) as
applied to the cartridge (see annex A.2)....

(thanks JP- there is a reason for that parallel universe ;-) )

so in theory we could impirically test our carts and reject any that were out of spec. Would be an interesting test on suspect carts- Kodak might be grateful for some solid evidence.

Mark

[Sparky]

So, while i think you can tell if a cart is likely to jam by checking how easily the spindle turns, i think K40 generally does look more unstable than tri-x even with carts that don't jam.

In your camera! What camera is that?

Mark