Hi
Im sending my beaulieux 4008zmII next week to be crystal sync'd. My question is should I sync at 24 or 25 fps?
I currently have ntsc minidv for transfer of film to video but am seriously thinking about changing to pal and then converting to NTSC when necessary. The quality of NTSC is just so crummy and my NLE is relatively easy to change between pal and NTSC. Im leaning towards 25 fps because transfer to film if required should not be that big of a deal.
Any comments would be greatly appreciated.
crystal sync at 24 or 25fps
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focusgroup
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crimsonson
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well that is up to you. Many indie filmmakers shoot 25fps video because of the fame rate and the additional 100 or so lines of res.
Just remember that you will prbably need more hardware (monitor, deck, etc) to really work in PAL.
Also, ging back from PAL to NTSC (or vice versa) is not as simple as you think. Have you calculated the cost and everything.
think it through and make sure you have an attack plan and plan "B" if something comes up.
Just remember that you will prbably need more hardware (monitor, deck, etc) to really work in PAL.
Also, ging back from PAL to NTSC (or vice versa) is not as simple as you think. Have you calculated the cost and everything.
think it through and make sure you have an attack plan and plan "B" if something comes up.
Obviously 25 fps is perfect for pal, and most pro's claim you can transfer 24 fps straight to pal and it's not noticable. They(some pro's, I'm not one and I probably shouldn't be giving advise about this, but what the hell?) also say 25 fps transfers just as well to ntsc as 24 fps, so the way I see it you can't lose with 25 fps.
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MovieStuff
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Super 8 is all about economy so why choose a speed that uses any more film than is absolutly necessary? Also, while the notion of transferring to PAL sounds like a good idea, the realities of getting back to NTSC aren't very straight forward, as Crimsonson pointed out. You may be trying to accomodate a scenario that you never have the opportunity to implement.
So, 24 or 25fps? I would use neither!
Go for 23.976 crystal synch and enjoy perfect lip synch for NTSC without having to alter your audio as well as the absolute minimum film usage you can achieve for professional shooting and still be above 18fps. I know, I know, the difference in film usage between 23.976 and 25 isn't huge but in super 8 every little bit counts.
Now, I understand that PAL video is superior but you aren't in PAL country, so just make the best of the resources that you have available. NTSC isn't total garbage and, compared to the limited contrast range of K40 and the jumbo grain of neg, NTSC will NOT be the weak link in the chain, believe me.
My two centavos....
Roger
So, 24 or 25fps? I would use neither!
Go for 23.976 crystal synch and enjoy perfect lip synch for NTSC without having to alter your audio as well as the absolute minimum film usage you can achieve for professional shooting and still be above 18fps. I know, I know, the difference in film usage between 23.976 and 25 isn't huge but in super 8 every little bit counts.
Now, I understand that PAL video is superior but you aren't in PAL country, so just make the best of the resources that you have available. NTSC isn't total garbage and, compared to the limited contrast range of K40 and the jumbo grain of neg, NTSC will NOT be the weak link in the chain, believe me.
My two centavos....
Roger
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Roger's exactly right. Go for 23.976. If you're in an NTSC country, and you're shooting S8, shoot NTSC-compatible footage. If you can't get 23.976, then get 24. 25 will only complicate your life. Keep It Simple, do what the pro's do, shoot at 24 for general film purposes, or 23.976 for direct-to-video purposes.
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I know Tobin offers 23.976 crystals, and he offers a nice tutorial on why you'd want it here:
http://www.tobincinemasystems.com/page81.html
Really, though, the difference between 24 and 23.976 is nearly inconsequential for Super8 work... if your average take is 15-20 seconds, there'll be no difference in sync. You have to shoot for over 40 seconds before the sync is off by even one frame, which would be almost unnoticeable.
In 16mm or 35mm, where you can have 11-minute film loads, and thus up to 11-minute takes, it might add up... but in Super8, with a limit of 2:30 per cartridge, you're talking about a maximum sync difference of only 3.6 frames for the duration of the entire cartridge... meaning, if you did one continuous take for the full running of the cartridge, the WORST POSSIBLE sync error you could get would be 3.6 frames out of sync. If you start and stop takes, you'll have nearly perfect sync all the time with 24fps, it'd just be .1% more precise at 23.976. So, considering you're accurate to 99.9% with 24fps, don't sweat it if you can't find 23.976... but if you CAN find 23.976, it'll be just that tiny little bit better.
http://www.tobincinemasystems.com/page81.html
Really, though, the difference between 24 and 23.976 is nearly inconsequential for Super8 work... if your average take is 15-20 seconds, there'll be no difference in sync. You have to shoot for over 40 seconds before the sync is off by even one frame, which would be almost unnoticeable.
In 16mm or 35mm, where you can have 11-minute film loads, and thus up to 11-minute takes, it might add up... but in Super8, with a limit of 2:30 per cartridge, you're talking about a maximum sync difference of only 3.6 frames for the duration of the entire cartridge... meaning, if you did one continuous take for the full running of the cartridge, the WORST POSSIBLE sync error you could get would be 3.6 frames out of sync. If you start and stop takes, you'll have nearly perfect sync all the time with 24fps, it'd just be .1% more precise at 23.976. So, considering you're accurate to 99.9% with 24fps, don't sweat it if you can't find 23.976... but if you CAN find 23.976, it'll be just that tiny little bit better.