Super-8 and Filmmaking in the UK

[Astro]

Super-8 has a very very strong user base in the UK. I spent 11 years running a Super-8 dept in London and I know that new Super-8 users appeared everyday of the week.

Currently if one is to buy a single roll of Super-8 using one of the few shops left in London to supply all services it will cost approx £50 for filmstock, processing and telecine to mini-dv, which considering its film is still very cheap (though £50 quid is still expensive when there's bills to pay!!)

However as someone who up until September designed those prices, I can truly say that the profit margin is extremely small and getting smaller with everyday that passes in this current financial climate. But any prices rises in Super-8 will only discourage usage. The problem is, sooner or later Super-8 will not be a viable format to sell as a business. Super-8 as a product is not an easy sell. A single roll sale could take anything up to 15 minutes depending on how many questions a new user has. Answering questions is part of the satisfaction of the sale but for an employer it doesn't make sense to have expensive staff members making time consuming small sales.

The strength of the Euro will also take it's toll on Super-8 use for those that use the European labs. But on the plus side since losing my job to the credit crunch I've had to play to my strengths in the commercial sector as a Director and DP and great looking Super-8 footage on a showreel still gets a very positive reaction.

For any budding freelancers DP's/filmmakers out there I'd say - get some Super-8 on your reel while its still available. Super-8 evokes something so magical that it deserves to have survived this long. As I am playing to my strengths to make it through, all those that wish to continue selling Super-8 as a business in the UK (including Kodak) must exploit the unique qualities of Super-8 if this gauge is to survive the prices rises.

As a final note, there has never been a more important time in the world for filmmakers to record the events that are happening all around the world and Super-8 is a perfect gauge to document these in tandem with digital formats, because super-8 (real film) images seduce the viewer with their power and gravitas that digital images don't always achieve . I love using my HD and DV cameras but film needs to survive because filmed images will probably out live all our digital images.

Astro

www.jakeastbury.com
www.astburyfilms.com
www.hjxfilms.com
www.hjxmedia.com

[pippin]

I agree with your sentiments entirely regarding the unique qualities and longevity of Super 8. It is an art form compared to the reality of video.

[woods01]

I always find it surprising that a country as large as the UK would not have any Super 8 processing. Why not track down an old Cramer or Jamieson processor and get that up and running. They're table top processors and were often used for fast in house processing when tv news shot film so there are bound to be some of these machines sitting around somewhere collecting dust.

[Muckymuck]

Crikey! I wondered why I hadn't seen you in the shop on the occasions I have popped down to London in recent months. Crying shame that considering how long you'd been there.

You answered my first enquiry about Super 8 about ten years ago when I wanted to know if there was anything other than Kodachrome still available.

Best of luck for the future, Jake.

[Angus]

Wow, bad fortune indeed losing that job after being there years. But good on you with your positive attitude.

Super 8 will probably survive the current economical difficulties, because they will be relatively short-lived. Though it could easily be two years before economies are in recovery, I doubt Kodak will pull the plug in that time even if sales slow. Seeing as Big K's motion picture division mostly sells to the industry, it may fare better than (for example) General Motors who rely on consumers making purchases of something costing thousands. We can all put off buying a new car for a couple of years, but that film needs to be made and you can't use second hand film!

As for there being no super 8 lab in the UK, is that very surprising when we live increasingly in a small world...where sending a package to Berlin is just as easy and almost as cheap as sending it across London?

[Jim Carlile]

If there are any anti-film sceptics left at Kodak, they are going to realize very soon that what used to be called the Eastman division will be their bread and butter the next few years. Their consumer divisions are going to take a big hit in any bad economy.

So I'm not worried about super 8-- it had a much rougher time in the early 90s, where they were selling like low double-digit numbers of 200-foot sound cartridges a year, and both Wall Street and top execs were clamoring for home-movie elimination, often boasting about what a joke it was. Things were really bad back then.

[Andreas Wideroe]

However as someone who up until September designed those prices, I can truly say that the profit margin is extremely small and getting smaller with everyday that passes in this current financial climate. But any prices rises in Super-8 will only discourage usage. The problem is, sooner or later Super-8 will not be a viable format to sell as a business. Super-8 as a product is not an easy sell. A single roll sale could take anything up to 15 minutes depending on how many questions a new user has. Answering questions is part of the satisfaction of the sale but for an employer it doesn't make sense to have expensive staff members making time consuming small sales.

This is very true. We see the same problems here in Norway and in our company. The profit margin is tiny and for filmprocessing we've actually lost money for some months. This all leads to increased prices and less sales. Very problematic. As an example I had a on and off 4 hours discussion with a customer over something like a dollar a while back. He thought one of our services was too expensive because we took about a dollar in profit... Thanks to him I realized what many of our services actually cost us and now we're increasing the prices.

Andreas

[Uppsala BildTeknik]

He thought one of our services was too expensive because we took about a dollar in profit...

What, you make a dollar in profit? Shame on you! :mrgreen:
(or at leat some people think so... :roll: )

Some people really think everyone else than themselves should work for free, it is pretty weird. And some people think that everyone else should just sit and wait for THEIR order to arrive. When they hear that the deliverytime is a few weeks they go "Does it take that long to tranfer my films?" (seriously!) :roll:

[MovieStuff]

...As an example I had a on and off 4 hours discussion with a customer over something like a dollar a while back. He thought one of our services was too expensive because we took about a dollar in profit... Thanks to him I realized what many of our services actually cost us and now we're increasing the prices.

I have these kinds of conversations all the time with customers. Ironically, it is the time wasted repeatedly talking about pricing of a product that often leads to a higher price for that very same product. After all, when you sell something, your involvement doesn't just end with cashing their check after the sale. You have to be available to talk to them when they have questions before the sale, trouble shoot after the sale, give guidance, advice, etc. That time has to be reflected in the price of the product.

I had one guy that called me last year, claiming that he wanted to do business with me but that, "frankly", my prices were just too high and that if I didn't cut my price in half, he'd just buy his telecine equipment from someone else. I was about to refer him to Clive (who has no more patience than me for this kind of nonsense) when I thought about it and then politely asked, "Would you then like me to sell you a unit at half price?"

He was feeling pretty full of himself and replied, "I thought you'd come around."

So I said,"Okay, but what I need from you first is a written agreement that if your unit breaks down, I don't have to service it, that you won't call me with any questions, and that if you are not satisfied with the results, you won't bitch about it on any forum on the internet. If you can guarantee me in writing that I will never have to deal with you again and that this sale will not affect my reputation in any future way, then perhaps we can do business."

At that point, he began to realize that the price of any product doesn't just reflect the materials or even the labor involved in its creation but also includes customer support and non-billable time that is averaged across all customers and not just the relationship of one, single customer.

And, after all, I'm doing this to support my family and not just for kicks and grins. Some people just don't get it because they're in the mindset that "It's just 8mm film. It should be free." :roll:

Roger

[Charlie Blackfield]

(...) So I said,"Okay, but what I need from you first is a written agreement that if your unit breaks down, I don't have to service it, that you won't call me with any questions, and that if you are not satisfied with the results, you won't bitch about it on any forum on the internet. If you can guarantee me in writing that I will never have to deal with you again and that this sale will not affect my reputation in any future way, then perhaps we can do business."

Well done.

One thing this discussion reminds me of is the advice I was sometimes given by friends when it comes to buying technical equipment: 'Go to the specialist store and find out what you need, then say you'll think about it, go down the big discounter and buy the stuff there for a lot less.' In other words: Waste the small business's time and give your money to the vultures. Well, I never followed this advice because I find it a disgusting attitude - and shortsighted, as it will inevitably mean that one day, there won't be any small businesses around any more who can take their time to give you sound advice. As for Super 8, the approach would hardly work anyway, it being a small niche business in the grand scheme of things.