Advice needed from current Retro-8 users

[jrcasey1960]

Hi. This is my first post here and my questions my be rather mundane for the advanced users here. I recently purchased one of Roger Evans' Retro-8 units and absolutely love it. It is simple to use and more than adequately does everything I need it to.

I am experiencing difficulty with determining the best exposure and gamma settings for my films. We shot often with low light Ektachrome and the grain is understandably excessive. Outdoor Kodachrome fares better, but grain remains a problem in my transfers. I understand that film is inherently grainy and I don't want to lose all of it, but seeing my transfers at 1080 on a large screen can sometimes be an excruciating experience! I've tried to use grain reduction settings in the RetroHD software, but sharpness is sacrificed more than I'd like. Along the same path, I've trialed Neat Video plugin with marginally better results. Understanding there are widely variable factors in film stocks and the manner in which they're shot, I'm not looking for a blanket answer, just some suggestions from more experienced folk. Some of the videos posted from Retro-8 scans look superb, so someone's got it right.

I know that the secret is likely in the post-processing, but I would appreciate any advice. For the record, I haven't taken my inquiries directly to Roger because there is nothing wrong with my machine. Also, I am just a hobbyist, so don't worry that I'm a loose cannon out there wrecking other people's projects!

I know that several folks participating in this forum seem to have more flexibility and inventiveness using avisynth. I know that this will limit my options, but I'm a more out if the retail box kind of guy (read Adobe).

Thanks in advance to anyone who might have some advice.

J. Casey

[MovieStuff]

I've been working with some off the shelf tools that don't take forever to post process with some interesting results. To start, it should be noted that virtually all digital cameras using some sort of sharpening algorithm and, on the RetroScan software, the grain reduction is really just the software not sharpening as much as it could. This is important because most cameras over-sharpen and the Chameleon camera in our unit has no on-board sharpening, which is one of the reasons we chose it. Now, I've been experimenting with using Adobe Photoshop's Smart Sharpen tool and it's pretty amazing. I transfer with maximum grain reduction and then run the images as a batch process through Photoshop using the Smart Sharpen filter. Settings may vary but the Smart Sharpen noise reduction and sharpening tool is easy to use and has produced some pretty amazing images. If you know how to batch process in Photoshop, then just export your movies from RetroScan as numbered image sequences to run through Photoshop. If you can capture uncompressed and then output as PNG files, you will stay uncompressed and get the best results, though you will use a ton of hard drive space. Exporting as JPEGs also works just great and saves a lot of space. Once I get a few "universal" settings in Smart Sharpen worked out, I will put them in the instructions for all Retro users because it is fast and looks just terrific.

Hope this helps.

Roger

[jrcasey1960]

Thanks, Roger! I'll try what you suggested. I recently read about doing some automated work in Photoshop and had considered that. I had not, however, considered the smart sharpen tool.

J. Casey

[milesandjules]

Nice one Roger I'm gonna try that.

[Tscan]

Neat Video can work really well depending on how you use it. It can be too soft with default settings. The key is to make a good noise profile (with the NV test target if possible) and then make use of the sharpening tools and noise level settings in real time. I find that the initial grain reduction is too much so i back it off by 50%. Once you get the hang of it, your grain reduction images can be sharper than the original frame scan.

[jrcasey1960]

Thanks so much for the replies. I'll continue to experiment!

[jrcasey1960]

Update. After taking the time to learn Neat Video, I am getting amazing results. As to actual settings in the retroscanHD software, I have also developed a learning curve. Usually, a mid exposure setting with zero gamma and no enhace takes care of most films in my collection. Roger provided even more help and advice with rendering. Once again, it's an amazing machine with great support; you just can't be too proud to ask for help as Roger and his team are more than willing to get you up and running!

Thanks again to all.

[Nate Williams]

Thanks for the insight into what the Grain Reduction option actually does. I am happy to hear it's not blurring the image but rather not sharpening via software. I have yet to try the Photoshop Smart Sharpen filter but I'm curious to see what kind of results it produces.

I'm curious to know if most Retro-8 users use the 'Enhance' option when capturing. I'm not quite sure exactly what it does, it appears to lighten the image at the same time making some scenes very grainy. I tend to use it though because most films I capture are dark indoor scenes that could use some brightening without blowing out whites. I know I can tweak the gamma but that also tends to cause the image to be a bit flat.

[Tscan]

I transfer with maximum grain reduction and then run the images as a batch process through Photoshop using the Smart Sharpen filter. Settings may vary but the Smart Sharpen noise reduction and sharpening tool is easy to use and has produced some pretty amazing images.

I did a test scan last night with the max grain reduction and then used the basic sharpening tool in Sony Vegas 10 and the results were pretty good. I also did a scan with the same roll (200T) with no grain reduction and used that to make an extra clip with a Neat Video filter. Out of the three samples, I like Roger's method the best. The grain on the raw scan is a bit too much, while Neat Video takes away a little too much grain. The grain reduction scan with some sharpening gave me just the right amount for my taste, but most importantly the grain was crisp and "looked right" as opposed to being a little mushy.

[MovieStuff]

I'm curious to know if most Retro-8 users use the 'Enhance' option when capturing. I'm not quite sure exactly what it does...

Reversal is very high in contrast and less than ideal for telecine. Because of the high degree of gamma applied to the raw capture to bring out more shadow detail, some scenes that would otherwise look normal can come out looking a bit flat. We found that some customers were intimidated by the sliders in the software used to compensate or were just too lazy to bother but both wanted a more "punchy" look on the original capture so they would not need to do as much or any post. I spent a couple of weeks transferring tons of film with different settings until I found a combination of settings that I felt worked pretty good with most of the typical home movies people might be transferring. Rather than provide a list of those settings to "dial in" to the software, we just put an "enhance" check box that applied those settings with the click of a mouse. The sliders are still active and many people will check the enhance box and then make more adjustments from that point. Like anything related to telecine, the enchance feature is just another tool to use as needed. Best results are usually a flat transfer with all grading done in post but that isn't as convenient, of course.

Roger

[jrcasey1960]

I have recently been transferring some black & white Super 8mm footage with the Retro-8. Grain size is quite large and presents the most challenges in my experience thus far. I've been using the Neat Video plugin for this footage and have found that building the best noise profile, turning Y down to 0%, and applying a temporal radius of 5 does the best job. Fewer artifacts with preservation of some grain structure results. I noticed that small objects in the background (clumps of grass, etc) seems to be slightly animated. When I looked back at the raw scan, the grain structure was causing that movement in those structures even before noise reduction was applied.

In terms of color footage, I continue to experiment. The raw scans are rather flat, but you can really bring out the colors with some minor adjustments. Some daylight scenes shot on tungsten film have been shot without daylight (warming) filters, but After Effects allows you to apply those filters (under effects>color correction>photo filter) which can be a major help. Color finesse 3 is included with After Effects and its full interface allows for some rather advanced color correction with minimal fuss (effects>synthetic aperature).

I've had a few color shots easily corrected with auto color and others that it does nothing for. In short, my post work is a slowly evolving process and nothing seems to work the same with different footage. I wish that I had all of the answers to share at this time, but I'll pass along what I learn.

With reference to Retro-8 transfer settings, I continue to prefer mid-exposure levels and pushing up the gamma slightly (2 or so, depending on the footage). I really don't do many color adjustments in the RetroHD hardware itself since I can do that in post. I've used the enhance setting rarely, although it really helps with darker footage.

[jrcasey1960]

A few more updates to my current work. I've forced myself to learn the basics of Adobe's Speedgrade, and it's really been paying off. Some of my Super 8mm footage requiring color correction has greatly benefited from this powerful program. I've learned how to use scopes and perfectly balance color and really bring out details that couldn't be seen in the raw scans.

Given this new development, I find that my new preference with Retro-8 is to go for medium to slightly lower exposure to preserve the highlights. The darker material is still there and can be brought out in post. Most of you likely already knew these things, but I'm still learning. For others, I can now say that you can achieve some amazing results with the Retro-8 scanner if you're willing to do some significant post work. Others may be more than happy with the raw scans, but for those who aren't and are willing to work a little in post, fantastic output can be attained with this great little machine.

My final workflow is scan, noise reduction, exposure/contrast adjustments, and color correction/balance. If anyone has questions about specific steps/problems in working with Retro-8 scans, please feel free to contact me. I'm still in a learning curve, but have done a tremendous amount of work/experimentation thus far and have quite a bit more to do.

Thanks again for the input.

[Colin Anderton]

Can I say that I have found the Retro-8 an absolute dream to work with. Until last year, I was in a job that I loved for many years, but I'd finally got tired of. I wanted something that didn't necessitate lifting heavy machinery about.

Thanks to Roger and his Retro-8 machine, I am now really enjoying life again. I'm starting to get a good flow of customers, and I've figured out a routine that works very well. A BIG thanks to Roger and his colleagues at Moviestuff.


I have one query, and I wonder if Roger could comment - and also whether any others have found the same issue:

I had been having difficulty with getting the Retro-8 software to work properly, until I opened it using "Administrator Privileges". Now it works like a dream. Is this normal? I use Windows 7.

Colin.

[MovieStuff]

I'm glad it's working out well for you!

I had been having difficulty with getting the Retro-8 software to work properly, until I opened it using "Administrator Privileges". Now it works like a dream. Is this normal? I use Windows 7.

Colin.

There is a presumption that the PC being used has only one administrator log in. If you have multiple log ins for different users, it could potentially be a problem if you install the software under one log in and try to use it on another. Contact me off list if you are still having issues.

Roger

[Craig05]

On average, how much hard disk storage space is needed for 400' feet of 8mm film using the uncompressed setting on the Retro-8 software? I am just trying to calculate my storage space needs… as I am trying to decide on either buying a solid state internal drive or maybe a regular hard drive for my media storage / capture within a desktop PC. Any advice / insight would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.