Best Editing Filetype?

Post by **Dr Smith** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:57 pm

If you edit on a PC/Mac - what file type do you prefer to import to your computer for the best picture quality?

I have recently contacted Andec regarding their Vision 2 package deal and I was wondering what filetype my stuff would be best served by for the transfer to DVD?

Sorry about all these 'spoon-feeding' newbie questions I just don't want to get burnt, cash wise, even though this is my first film (and I know I should ideally just test test test and LEARN that way) but I am aiming to submit it for Nathan Coomb's Citizen Super 8 project - so I would like to get as much 'right' as possible! All help and advice, as always, greatly appreciated!!

Post by **jpolzfuss** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:13 am

DV-codec - either as a AVI- (editable on Linux, MacOS, Windows, ...) or quicktime-file (more or less MacOS-only).
Beware that the file-size easily exceeds 2GB, which is a problem on some systems and/or some editing tools.

Post by **gianni1** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:22 am

I would say the same, dv codec. On hard disk it would be filename something like "movie.dv" or alternatively on a mini dv tape cartridge for connecting to the computer with a camcorder via firewire cable. If it's on DVD, ask for a DVD data disk with Mini DV compression, not DVD compression.

Mini DV codec ( codec = compression decompression) is 25fps (PAL) or 30fps (NTSC), good for editing, less compressed than DVD codec (compression decompression) is MPEG 2, which is more compressed, lossy and not good for editing.

These files are your source and original backup. After the final editing is done then print edit master to video tape, and one to a dv data file onto the hard disk for creating DVD's, MOV's, AVI's, 3gp, etc...

Gianni 8)

Post by **Scotness** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:25 am

Stay away from dv codecs whenever you can -- if it's only one roll you should be able to get that transferred uncompressed onto one data dvd, and then you can downconvert to dv for your edit and put that back over your uncompressed master for your final out.
Scot

Post by **wado1942** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:44 am

DV25 codecs are a 10:1 compression includding the nasty 4:1:1 color-space (or 4:2:0 which sounds good on paper until you consider the interlaced fields). I usually capture on DV25 and export directly to my final form. Sometimes if I need multiple generations, I'll export using Huffman YUV which is a lossless codec that can get about 4:1 compression. The only reason I use DV25 is because my equipment/software works with it very efficiently.

Post by **mattias** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:34 am

dv is fantastic since it's the only "professional" amateur tape format. tape is a very cheap and compatible solution that i really recommend. if you have your stuff on tape you're compatible with all consumer tools on all platforms as well as all the professional workflows you'll ever need. any post house you want to deal with will be able to help you, which is not the case with hard drives, which is also always more expensive if they do accept it.

*but*, it's compressed and if you're transferring to hard drive and doing all the post work yourself there's no reason to use the dv codec at all (unless your hard drive is tiny of course). uncompressed is the way to go and while some people will say you need a raid setup and a fast computer most modern hard drives will keep up with the rate fine. blackmagic is a good cross platform codec that's also free. apple's uncompressed is the same thing, 100% compatible as long as it's 10-bit yuv. blackmagic also has some other color schemes and bit depths not supported by apple's codec.

/matt

Post by **gianni1** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:29 am

I use quick time uncompressed for short five - ten minute works, but for longer projects use mini dv codecs. I'm using multi-purpose home type personal computers. Mini DV is one gig every five minutes. Uncompressed is what?... 30 MB a second or almost two gigs a minute?...

Interesting search results from black magic

I just downloaded their free codec... but am doing webmastering $%*! this week, not AV...

Gianni 8)

Post by **Dr Smith** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:37 pm

I am really intrigued by these different possabilities but I am unclear at which point codec like Back Magic comes in. Are you talking about converting the data from source i.e. tape to PC, convert to black magic, then import to NLE, edit, then export as 'X'? It seems that most of these codecs are really designed to minimise hard drive consumption but can potentially reduce the final quality of image. Obviously it depends what your film's final destination is - from youtube to a festival piece or DVD compilation like Super 8 Cities..

My original question relates to the raw data produced after my film has been scanned. The data or codec that is either transferred to tape or onto a DVD.

I will be asking Andec for a DVD as I do not own a tape deck to import it to my PC (although I do have a digital Hi8 camcorder - though I am not sure I can get a Hi8 tape from Andec - or indeed if that would be adviseable anyway?). So the question I should be asking is, perhaps, to Herr Draser at Andec. What codec choices do I have? He mentioned in an email to me avi, mov and video as some possabilities. Not sure what file extension a video file actually has I think it is a VOB (if it is the same as a prerecorded DVD then I just need to pop one in and open up in explorer to see). I'll take a wild stab here and guess that a video file from Andec will be the least compressed . :?

So if I get VOBs on a DVD do I (or should I) do anything with them (Black Magic) or just import them, raw, into my NLE (Sony Vegas) and then edit and export as VOBs too?? I asked Nathan Coombs what kind of files he wants for Citizen Super 8 and am waiting to hear back from him (he's incredibly busy at the mo) but if my film is to be good enough for his project then I am aiming for best picture quality possible.

Post by **wado1942** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:54 pm

MPEG-2 at 6mbps (DVD) creates for freakin' awful images especially as a capture format. Whatever you do, DO NOT let DVD be your master format.

Post by **mattias** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 5:37 pm

Dr Smith wrote:I am really intrigued by these different possabilities but I am unclear at which point codec like Back Magic comes in. Are you talking about converting the data from source i.e. tape

if your source is tape it's already dv, so any conversion can only make it worse. dv is the codec to use for dv material. period.

My original question relates to the raw data produced after my film has been scanned. The data or codec that is either transferred to tape or onto a DVD.

dvd's can contain anything. beware of mpeg-2 dvd's, the kind you watch in standalone players, that's worse quality than dv. however if they can put it as a blackmagic mov or avi on the dvd, that's great and what you should go for.

So the question I should be asking is, perhaps, to Herr Draser at Andec. What codec choices do I have? He mentioned in an email to me avi, mov and video as some possabilities. Not sure what file extension a video file actually has I think it is a VOB

yes, that's exactly the question. uncompressed (apple, blackmagic) or dv compressed avi or mov is what you want. vob is indeed the consumer mpeg-2 format, which you don't want.

/matt

Post by **mattias** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 5:42 pm

wado1942 wrote:MPEG-2 at 6mbps (DVD) creates for freakin' awful images especially as a capture format. Whatever you do, DO NOT let DVD be your master format.

i wouldn't call it awful but you're right it's not recommended. mpeg-2 at 9 mbit is about the same quality as dv though, since mpeg-2 is a three times as effective codec. however i still wouldn't consider it since it doesn't "edit well", and like with hdv you'll likely to see some motion artifacts.

/matt

Post by **gianni1** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:34 pm

You want a DVD data disk with the mov or avi or dv file. Not a vob file.

You don't want a DVD movie disk with VOB files for DVD players.

You can also use your "Digital 8" camcorder, Not "Digital Hi-8".

Digital 8 is the Sony version of Mini DV tape format. Uses the same size cartridge of their analogue Hi-8, and 8mm tape cartridges, but is Digital Data. If you have a Digital 8 camcorder, ask the transfer house if they can deliver Digital 8. They may have a Digital 8 camcorder.

These camcorders can play back non-digital 8mm and Hi-8 tapes, and if connected via firewire to the computer, convert the the video to digital. It doesn't change the video quality, just converts the analog video to digital.

I purchased two cases of 10 Sony 8mm Data Cartridges for ten pounds each. They are for tape backup, but now I use them in my Digital 8 camcorder. Don't know if older format analogue Hi-8 or 8mm cartridges record in a Digital 8 camera, but my D8 camcorder always complains with non D8 cartridges. Must be some chip or something in the cartridge.

Gianni 8)

Post by **wado1942** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:41 pm

It doesn't change the video quality, just converts the analog video to digital.

Not true, a signal conversion of ANY KIND will ALWAYS degrade the quality. In the case of Video-8, the quality is so low you just don't notice the degradation.

As for being able to record on non D-8 tapes, most D-8 camcorders will record in the analogue Hi8 format when a Hi8 tape is inserted and will record composite 8mm format when a regular Video-8 tape is inserted. Cameras that don't have that ability either won't record at all or will produce absolute unreadable garbage because you need the higher resolution ME tape to store the necessary bandwidth. Beware with D-8 cameras. Although they are VERY handy, they are in comparatively short supply so if it fails, you may have a hard time finding a replacement. While with MiniDV, the cameras are everywhere and a repacement can be had for $200 or less sometimes.

Post by **mattias** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:23 pm

wado1942 wrote:
It doesn't change the video quality, just converts the analog video to digital.
Not true, a signal conversion of ANY KIND will ALWAYS degrade the quality.

i think he meant it doesn't make it better.

as for mini dv camcorders, they are indeed very cheap and you really should get one. how else will you get high quality video out of your computer? dvd is not good enough for television for example and many festivals don't screen it. i'm assuming your d8 supports dv out with playthrough, you really need to have a tv monitor hooked up to see what your footage really looks like.

/matt

Post by **Dr Smith** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 4:20 am

mattias wrote: [...]yes, that's exactly the question. uncompressed (apple, blackmagic) or dv compressed avi or mov is what you want.
/matt

If I had say twenty minutes of footage with which to make a 5-10 minute short. What is the minimum computer spec you would recommend working with, in terms of processor speed and hard drive capacity, if editing uncompressed black magic? I'm guessing uncompressed will be considerably larger than an avi.

Thank you to everyone for the advice so far by the way.