Great film, but no market for it: Sorry...

[VideoFred]

nah, my body is me.

If you look at it this way, then you are the slave of yourself.
Try to stop eating for a few days...
You will get signals from yourself.

Fred.

[MovieStuff]

but our minds are slaves under the chemicals as well. and without them i'm not sure there would be a soul at all, we would just be neural networks evaluating input, like ants.

I think that's all we are, anyway, when you get right down to it. One of the great debates about artificial intelligence is what defines "intelligence"? Like, how smart is a cat? Well, a cat is very smart at being a cat. Put us in the position of being a cat and we might not fair so well. The basis of the Touring competition, which is very interesting, is that people with A.I programs load them onto computers and those computers are mixed with computers that are remotely monitored and fed data by real humans. A panel then rotates through all the computers and starts up a conversation with each computer, not knowing if the answers they get are from an A.I. program or a real person. The program that fools the panel the most is the winner of the competition. It is an interesting approach because it deals with intelligence not as a quantifiable figure on a scale but, rather, as a something that creates a reflex condition in the person interacting with the computer running the A.I program. In other words, if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's a duck, even if it is just binary code emulating a duck to the satisfaction of our need to see a duck. After all, humans come in all forms of intellect, from mentally handicapped to idiot savants to average to genius. Yet all are considered to be "intelligent" because we see the responses we get as human in nature. What we consider the soul may be nothing more than electro chemical reactions to outside stimuli that could be mimicked with transistors instead of neurons. I have often wondered if you replaced one neuron with a single transistor, would the person think or feel any different? What about replacing two? Three, etc, etc? At what point does the person lose his soul and ability to think creatively?

Roger

[VideoFred]

Hi Roger,

I sure hope you are not cheating us for all these years and I'm not talking to a computer. (in panic) Oh my God you are Hal ! :lol:

Fred.

[mattias]

I think that's all we are, anyway, when you get right down to it.

yes, but not really. we change depending on who we meet, what we do, what we eat, who we kiss, what we smoke, what illnesses we suffer, and so on, and that's the chemicals. ants don't do that. they evaluate stimula and follow instincts, that's the difference. a human like a.i. needs a way to simulate hormones and the occasional use of recreactional drugs. :-)

/matt

[MovieStuff]

we change depending on who we meet, what we do, what we eat, who we kiss, what we smoke, what illnesses we suffer, and so on, and that's the chemicals. ants don't do that. they evaluate stimula and follow instincts, that's the difference.

But so do we, to a large degree. I guess it would be interesting if there was a way to guage if ants today are "smarter" than ants from a million years ago. That is to ask, is instinct hardwired as a permanent set of instructions that never changes over time or do ants learn and adapt with changes in their environment. To me, that would indicate some level of intelligence beyond instinct.

Roger

[audadvnc]

... what defines "intelligence"? Like, how smart is a cat? Well, a cat is very smart at being a cat. Put us in the position of being a cat and we might not fair so well.

I live with a cat who can track birds like nobody's bizness, but put her on a leash and she can't figure out how to untangle herself.

if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's a duck, even if it is just binary code emulating a duck to the satisfaction of our need to see a duck.

Huh? I thought we were talking about cats? Wasn't I paying attention? But - AHA! I got ya! A digicam photo is binary code emulating a duck, but I can tell it's not a REAL duck. Besides, don't you remember that old fairy tale, "the Nightengale"? But of course that wasn't about a duck or a cat, either, so nevermind...

At what point does the person lose his soul and ability to think creatively?

The second somebody takes a picture of him, of course.

[mattias]

But so do we, to a large degree

yes, but that's exactly why i say that it's not the neural network that makes us intelligent. ants change between generations, but not during their lifespan. we do every day, and that's why we think we have a choice, and that's why we are conscious. the neural network has the ability to reprogram itself but to a very limited degree compared to what chemicals can do. chemicals that are either ingested or produced by our bodies. i don't believe in intelligence without them. see what i mean?

/matt

[mattias]

A digicam photo is binary code emulating a duck, but I can tell it's not a REAL duck.

hence it fails the test. it needs to walk like one and talk like one, remember? it's not the "binary code" that makes it intelligent, it's you not being able to tell the difference. it sounds like a joke but it's actually how intelligence is defined in the realm of a.i.

/matt

[steve hyde]

Wanna talk about movies??

There are plenty of boards where you can post about politics. Not that politics are bad.

My response to this is that I want to talk about communication because movies are about communication. My point about politics in the movies is that there are political outcomes in the art of communication in the movies.
If you make a beer commercial you are selling beer - if you make a Harry Potter movie that also comes with political outcomes. Maybe you don't like to think about and discuss what they are and if that is the case, fine.

I won't waste my time with your other comments... but I will say that your contribution to this thread has been mostly blowing hot air. You came in talking about facts and numbers that support your argument and you didn't bother telling us what the facts and numbers are.... classic right-wing turd tossing anti-intellectualism.

It's fine to be frustrated with the thread, but don't just lambaste it because you don't understand it. Tell us why it's bullshit. Why are Marxist perspectives bullshit? What would Milton Friedman say? How would he answer the question? Please enlighten us. Show us the light...

Steve

[steve hyde]

...I can't weigh in much on A.I. not knowing much about that, but certainly invite the open exchange of ideas into this thread.

It might be interesting to discuss chemical responses to audio-visual information. The most obvious being reactions to sexual and violent audio-visual content.

In many ways this could tie into the main thread of this discussion because one of my points about Iraq in Fragments is that it is a humanizing portrait.
I think the verb *humanizing* is key here. It is to say that the work of cinema engages a process in the mind that connects to something universally human. In Iraq in Fragments it's a classic case of identifying with boyhood/ childhood under the constraints of the militarized world of Bagdad. Truffaut's "400 Blows" succeeded at it too in Paris. 400 Blows is a more engaging film though. Filmmakers pick up on universal themes and when it is done well - a good film can change the collective consciousness.

Great cinema emotionally engages. A great director is a manipulator of emotions. A film director cobbles together a series of images and sounds to solicit an emotional response. Psychological cinema is more like music than it is like news gathering. Like a musician - the artisits of psychological cinema use rhythm, pacing and mood to ignite a chemical reaction in the bodies of viewers.

War photography, pornography, snowboarding films are all drug-like agents that fire the brain and body in ways that should not be underestimated .

Steve

[MovieStuff]

It might be interesting to discuss chemical responses to audio-visual information. ...

I used the cat earlier as an example but another fish-out-of-water scenario would be to take a Wallstreet banker and put him in the jungle naked with no food, water or shelter and no map to find his way home. Is he smart? Sure. But does he have the necessary information to survive? A monkey would, with no problem. Natives to the area would probably consider the banker quite stupid. I think the point is that what we consider to be "intelligent" is often defined by internal bias that, itself, is the result of our environment. Thus we are pre-programmed to "see" intelligence or lack thereof based on our own predispositions about what intelligence is supposed to look like. As an extension, we also define what it is to be human after taking in only visual information rather than any specific data related to quantifying intelligence. There is something called the "uncanny valley" that was formulated by a Japanese robot maker named Masahiro Mori. He recognized that the more something looks human and less like a machine, the more we accept it in human terms. But there reaches a point where it is realllllly close to human appearance but falls short in a very creepy way and the viewer is then repulsed by the look. Then as the appearance gets past that and finally reaches human form, acceptance is reclaimed. The difference between repulsion and acceptance is what he calls the "uncanny valley". I see the same thing happen in film making and special effects where something that isn't even close, in terms of achievement, is easier to accept than something that just misses the mark.

Roger

[VideoFred]

War photography, pornography, snowboarding films are all drug-like agents that fire the brain and body in ways that should not be underestimated .

This is so true! :!:
And it is underestimated.

Fred.

[VideoFred]

but our minds are slaves under the chemicals as well. and without them i'm not sure there would be a soul at all, we would just be neural networks evaluating input, like ants. /matt

Hmmmmm......

But even ants are doing things no scientist can realy explain. They are building structures way beyond the capacity of an individual ant. They are organized with militairy precision. They do not connect their small brains into a wireless network, do they? Then who is telling them what to do?

Fred.

[mattias]

But even ants are doing things no scientist can realy explain. They are building structures way beyond the capacity of an individual ant.

so do the sand and the wind in deserts, dust in spece, and rock under pressure. don't underestimate the power of order in chaos.

as for movies, i think they act mainly on the brain, both the eyes and ears connect directly on the brain without causing any physical "interference" on the way, but then we touch on one of the most powerful concepts of the human; the brain can actually control the body in ways that make the body produce chemicals that completely change the way the brain works.

i'm experimenting a lot with lucid dreaming right now, some very powerful stuff. it's amazing how much the brain can do without the body, but it's not the same, it actually feels like a simulation. sex for example is as "intellectually" interesting when you're dreaming, you can really get aroused, but most often its unsatisfying and frustrating. when i become conscious in my sleep i rather visit friends who are dead or fly around a little in the alps. much more fun. what i'm trying to learn is to actually "do" stuff that i would otherwise do during the day, thus being able to sleep more without losing time. writing screenplays works ok, but it's hard to remember everything when you wake up, and everything is lynch. :)

/matt

[VideoFred]

the brain can actually control the body in ways that make the body produce chemicals that completely change the way the brain works.

OK but the trigger was the brain in the first place. It has changed itself then.

it's amazing how much the brain can do without the body

In my opinion, the mind can even live without the body. I realy mean without the fysical brain cells too. Will I get crucified for saying this?

when i become conscious in my sleep i rather visit friends who are dead or fly around a little in the alps. much more fun.

Make a film of this, Mattias. :idea:
You have the talent to do that.

Fred.