SOT: For MAC Maniacs Only :D : FCE Or AP 4.0 w/1 TB Disk?

[S8 Booster]

How good is FCE for the MAC? Is it as user friendly as the God ol´ Adobe Premiere 4.0 - being astonishingly quick and precise?

Second option is to use AP40 working with uncompressed files but it will require a new 1 TB disk. A bit more time consuming but...

Avid Free DV is a joke

so what do you recommend?

R

[mattias]

fce sucks. it's limited in many of the areas where limits really show, rather than just serving as a barrier between amateur and pro applications, like the track limit in pro tools free.

/matt

[mercyboy]

well, i'll have to respectfully but totally disagree with the reply above. i assume you're asking about FCE rather than FCP because price is an issue. and for the price, i think FCE is an damn good deal and much better than AP—especially considering a very generous upgrade path with Apple if you opt for FCP later. Unless you're making your living off it 24x7, FCE probably has just about everything you're going to need...I don't see much of a difference except for truly pro features such as batch processing, etc. (And I say this as an FCP man, myself!) Try it, you'll like it!

[christoph]

How good is FCE for the MAC? Is it as user friendly as the God ol´ Adobe Premiere 4.0 - being astonishingly quick and precise?

you should really ask yourself first: do you want to work uncompressed or is DV good enough. if you need uncompressed you need FCP... if DV is fine, FCE might be an option (depends on your prefered workflow).

if you even think about doing uncompressed work in AE4 you're a braver man than i am ;)

++ christoph ++

[Dave Hardy]

If you'll be working with 16mm & 35mm project which have Keykode, then FCP will be worth it for the included Cinema Tools program. Also if you are shooting DigiBeta Beta SP DVC pro 50 or one of the HD formats you'll also want FCP.

Most people working with miniDV & Digital 8 don't miss the high end features at all. For most people thinking of moving up to FCP, starting with FCE is a good option as Apple gives you full credit forr what you paid for FCE towards the purchase of FCP. You simply pay the difference in price between the 2 apps.

You can then probably turn around & sell your copy of FCE. If you are buying a new Mac before Jan. 10 you can even get FCE from your Mac store at 1/3 of the normal price. In any case it makes a good inexpensive learner system to ease you into the program. Should you decide you don't likeFinal Cut you haven't spent that much.

Dave

[S8 Booster]

Thanks for the replies.

Just to clarify a detail: The AP 4 does not support any current lossless (mini)DV format/FireWire for import or export so what I do now is to capture DV via iMovie, decompress the files to QT uncompressed - 5 times up - and then I can open them in AP 40 for editing.

The AP run in Classic mode is blistering fast in shuffeling uncompressed GB size files and is extremely efficient in editing so this is merely a question about user interface. I like the A/B rolling in the AP project board for editing. It seems like the FCE offers a similar principle?
Thats the big clue.

Working in uncompressed mode is no primary choice but the only way I can use AP 4 to ensure lossless editing - as it seems right now. A 1 TB disk is the only way to achieve some "run time" for editing.
There are lots of other compressors avail in AP 40 for import/export and I have not checked them all and some of them may be lossless but the process for transferring them back and forth between Mini DV and AP will be the same.

The re-export from AP to tape is done via QT player: AP .movie.MOV flattened to movie.mov and then imported to iMovie for tape or DVD export. Time consuming but the results are excellent

To sum up: User interface is the main target: I may not need the PRO features in FCP so I will look into it to see if FCE is an option for me. My main target is to make company promo films - no TV or cine jobs.

The partial PROMO clip I posted recently was made by this method:

Video8 original -> DV via Sony PC120 analog to DV -> imported to iMovie -> exported to QT uncompresed -> opened an edited in AP 4 -> exported to QT player as flattened movie.MOV file -> re-exported to iMovie as .mov file. Final export to MiniDV or DVD. Time consuming for bigger files but result is excellent.

R

[Arnie]

Hello!

I assume I qualify as a Mac Maniac.
FCE is awesome for the price, but like others have said it comes down to you.

When I was looking at FCE, one thing I noticed (IIRC) was that effects can't be keyframed. That to me was a necessary feature, so I just use Final Cut Pro 3.
For me, I find it more stable than FCP4 and it was cheaper, but I know it lacks features others might need.

You might want to head down to a Mac store and run both FCP & FCE, and see how you like them.

If you feel you need Final Cut Pro and if you have a fast Macintosh, I highly recommend the Apple Production Suite- it includes a ton of Apple's best media software for much less than they'd be separately.

[Dave Hardy]

Thanks for explaining you present method. Final Cut Exprress would be perfect for what you want to do. You can even set chapter markers for your DVD's from FCE's timeline & scoring markers for SoundTrack (comes standard with FCP but is a $299 US extra if added to FCE).

If you are not purchasing a new Mac at this time, you may want to wait till Jan. 11 before buying FCE2. FCE version 3 will probably be introduced on Jan. 11. Some more features from FCP4.5 will undoubtably make it into FCE3. FCP version 5 will probably be introduced mid April at the NAB show along with Tiger.

Dave

[christoph]

Video8 original -> DV via Sony PC120 analog to DV -> imported to iMovie -> exported to QT uncompresed -> opened an edited in AP 4 -> exported to QT player as flattened movie.MOV file -> re-exported to iMovie as .mov file. Final export to MiniDV or DVD. Time consuming for bigger files but result is excellent.

sorry to say that, but your workflow seems like a bit of a waste of HD space (and time). the only reason to work uncompressed would be if you play out through a uncompressed capture card in the end or export from uncompressed to mpeg2 directly (fcp lets you do that) but even then it's better to work in DV and just copy over the final edit to an uncompressed timeline.
as you go back to DV anyway (the second iMovie step) you could just as well work in DV all the way through since you get a second DV compression anyway.

++ christoph ++

[S8 Booster]

Logically you are right but reality is somewhat different. The AP 4 is more or less only able to "import" and process (de/)uncompressed MiniDV originated files with no quality degradation and it is blistering quick in doing this. Export film to PAL DV which is an option for 4.0 shows severe degratation - for some reason. Looks alike 1 field intelaced (even if set to full frame) if you know what I mean. Uncompressed shows no degradation.

So I was stuck with a safe option: Stay uncompressed all the way back to QTP possibly iMovie (slow at importing uncompressed directly)

There may be other options to get around faster but if say FCE use a somewhat similar interface it is a better option of course.


Lovly AP 4 interface: (click image to see big image)


Compressors avail for the AP 4:



R

[S8 Booster]

fce sucks. it's limited in many of the areas where limits really show, rather than just serving as a barrier between amateur and pro applications, like the track limit in pro tools free.

/matt

Do you think that the FCE limitations vs FCP are so severe that say, you will run into problems immediately with your work?

R

[mattias]

Do you think that the FCE limitations vs FCP are so severe that say, you will run into problems immediately with your work?

yes. at least if you want to be able to do all the things you're used to from premiere.

I don't see much of a difference except for truly pro features

well, as an fcp man, have you used fce at all then? it doesn't sound like it. it's severly limited even compared to premiere, even though i agree it's a better program in many ways. i don't think it's bad, but it's still very expensive for something which looks and behaves like a free demo. if all you want to do is transfer from tape to computer and put clips one after another on a timeline premiere works fine, as does imovie.

/matt

[timdrage]

Random tip re: uncompressed footage... If you use the Animation compression codec with quality at 100% it's lossless apparently, so you get (usually only very slightly!!) smaller file sizes than entirely uncompressed movies, without losing any quality.

[Dave Hardy]

After 30 yrs of editing 16mm I moved to FCP 4 1/2 yrs ago. I've been teaching FCP for about 4yrs. now. I've upgraded to each new version as it came along. Currently I have an FCP 4 upgrade as well as the production bundle which includes FCP 4.5.

When FCE came out I picked up a copy of it as well as I thought I might get a few students who wanted to get proficient with FCE. So I'm a registered user of both programs.


I've encountered 16mm & 35mm professionals here in Vancouver who looked down on Super 8 and never gave it it's due. FCE is just fine for DV25 productions. I don't use FCE myself because I have FCP, but I think I have have had sufficient exposure to FCE teachinng users of the program how to work with it to say that it will satisfy the needs of the vast majority of miniDV & Digital 8 users.

I have a student starting next week that I persuaded to start with FCE rather than FCP. He stands nothing to lose starting with FCE as by paying the difference in price he can at any time upgrade to FCP simply by paying the difference in price Because I have FCP, I can show him the difference between the 2 programs.


Dave

[mattias]

I think I have have had sufficient exposure to FCE teachinng users of the program how to work with it to say that it will satisfy the needs of the vast majority of miniDV & Digital 8 users.

you're missing my point; so will premiere, which he already has, and imovie, which is free.

I have a student starting next week that I persuaded to start with FCE rather than FCP. He stands nothing to lose

compared to not getting either he does.

/matt