Starting a B&W Reversal Super 8 Processing Lab

[Konton]

I just spent about two and a half hours talking with Steve, the owner of Rocky Mountain Film. Steve has some great ideas on how to start a Super 8 only film lab. He’s got some great processing equipment available for sale, including one for Kodachrome. I was surprised when he informed me that starting next month, Kodak will be sending all Kodachrome film directly to Dwaynes. So if ever there was a time to start another Kodachrome lab in the states, this is it. I think if anyone here is really interesting in getting a lab going, you should contact Steve. He’d be happy to speak to you at length about getting one going.

I thought I would share this all with you since I know some of us here are interested in processing film. I contacted Steve because I had been thinking for a while now about getting a small lab going for B&W Reversal for the San Francisco area. I’d appreciate to hear any comments you have about this plan.

At the time I didn’t think Kodachrome was the best place to start (no way would a Kodachrome processor fit in my bathroom), nor Ektachrome as its future is uncertain. Super 8 Negative has not been around that long, but I think Monaco Labs down the street could probably process it. That left me with B&W Reversal which usually is sent to Forde Labs in Seattle or Yale Film and Video in Burbank.

Now I have been reading the other posts on the forum and it just seemed to be that these roller-transport film processors that usually did microfilm would never work for my needs. They either worked slow, or didn’t have the capacity I needed. Their main attraction was they used a small amount of chemicals and could sit on a desk. What I wanted was something that was small enough to fit in a small room with the water hookups. It would have to have a large enough capacity and work fast enough that I could do 40 or 50 carts in a day.

Now I had been to the site before and seen the pictures, but this time I really looked at the 16mm B&W Reversal processor listed on the Rocky Mountain Film website:
http://www.rockymountainfilm.com/equipm ... on16mm.htm

Steve gave me the specs on the Jamieson Compaq processor. Made for 16mm and will also run Super 8. Only 4-5 feet long, 30 inches wide, and about 5 feet high on casters. Uses a 2,000 foot magazine and runs around 20-40 feet a minute. We guessed that in one run of 2,000 feet it would use about 6 gallons of each of the different chemicals required. Steve guessed it would take about an hour and a half for it to finish all that film.

I went to the Kodak website and got the chemistry information for processing:
http://www.kodak.com/US/plugins/acrobat ... /H-661.pdf

I’m sure you can find this information to process other types of film. I then called Kodak and verified the price of all the chemistry. For those interested in B&W Reversal, the pricing was like this:

First Developer – 16 gallons - $65.54
Bleach – 40 gallons - $145.76
Cleaning Bath – 15 gallons - $37.54
Redeveloper – 15 gallons - $52.00
Fix – 20 gallons - $18.38

Steve pointed out to me I was also going to need a densitometer and control strips to test the machine each time it was used as well as a few replenishing tanks and a water mixing value with a thermometer to make sure the water temperature was correct. I’d also need a supplier of leader, splicing cement, and spools to send the film out with.

You can do the match and figure out how much it costs to do 2000 ft with this processor. For those looking for other cine processors to see what they can do I also happened to come across this website:
http://www.rkequipment.com/cgi-bin/Results.asp?Cat=630

I’d prefer to stick to something that was made for that specific use. So the Jamieson Compaq looks great for my needs. But the question that remains is if there is a market. It’s not worth using all that chemistry for one cart of film. My starting market is the city of San Francisco (therefore the rest of this information may not be interesting to anyone but me).

There are only four stores that sell B&W Reversal Motion Picture Film in San Francisco. They tell me they sell on an average week a total of 75 carts of Super 8 or daylight spools of 16mm. Most of this comes from the five schools in the area that have classes which require them to use 16mm of Super 8 film.

The students of those schools have always complained about having to wait a week to get their film back (If you waited the last minute to get you school project done you would as well). I think if there was someone local to process their film, most of those 75 carts sold would get processed by that local lab. This might also increase B&W reversal film sales. Add on some telecine services and sound striping, and it might be enough to make a profit right from the beginning.

So that’s my plan. As some of you know I currently do Super 8 and regular 8mm telecine transfers using the WorkPrinter-Pro as well as sound striping doing both the main and balance stripe. Tack on B&W reversal developing and there’s a one stop post-production shop for B&W Reversal Super 8 films. Get the 4 stores in San Francisco to accept the film for me so people can drop off the film where they buy it, and I have a built-in customer base. Plus since I already have their film, the possibility of me doing a telecine transfer or sound striping right after development is much higher.

Let me know what you think of my plan to keep B&W Reversal Super 8 filmmaking going in San Francisco. I also like to hear from anyone else who is thinking of opening up a little mini-lab like this.

[thebrowniecameraguy]

Curious.

As it is I send my B&W to FILMLAB, I buy my black and white on eBay. They offer processing.

But, I would much rather like to support a fellow filmshooter rather than a company.

So will you be able to purchase this processor by yourself, or are you going in with someone?


Cheers,
Jordan

[Konton]

Thanks for the support. I'm trying to do this all on my own with the hopes of making a one stop black and white super 8 post-production shop. Hey, it could happen right? As a one man operation I might actually be able to making a living while college is in session.

If I can get a supermag400, then I'll try to do optcial prints of films on B&W as well. That is if I can process the film myself. Add my own sound striping capabilities and now you can have a complete B&W Super 8 sound print of your film.

[MovieStuff]

starting next month, Kodak will be sending all Kodachrome film directly to Dwaynes. So if ever there was a time to start another Kodachrome lab in the states, this is it.

I disagree but for a different reason than you might think.

There is a small town we vacation in out in west Texas called Utopia that has only one resturant and the food there is okay but not great. I think the quality of their food is more the result of keeping the prices low than it is inability to cook a better meal. Now, every time some one new comes into town and realizes there's only one resturant, they immediately opine that it would be a perfect place to start a second, better resturant. However, while one marginal resturant can thrive, two good resturants would probably go out of business due to the limited customer base.

In that sense, I think another lab servicing Kodachrome might suffer the same fate and/or cause the same problem for both labs. I get the sense that Dwaynes is barely holding on and, if true about Kodak sending all their footage to Dwaynes, there is obviously a reason (even if we don't know what that reason might be). I think your intentions are good but processing Kodachrome is a nasty affair and I suspect that Dwaynes would suffer if another lab came in with competitive prices. And let's face it, the start up costs for operating a lab would be so severe, that you'd need to slash prices initially just to get in cash flow. That sort of hit could really be a blow to Dwaynes, even if they are temporarily getting all of Kodak's work flow. I would just hate to see all the wrong things happen due to best intentions.

But as far as processing B&W and Ektachrome, I think that's where the bigger emphasis could pay off. This would be especially true if Kodak dumps Kodachrome and leaves us with an E-6 alternative.

My two liters.....

Roger

[shralp]

Ummm, Kodak aleady sends their U.S. Kodachrome to Dwaynes and they have been for some time now....

[downix]

I would love a B&W dedicated lab in the US for SUper8. I've been sending my B&W to canada for some time now.

[Konton]

Thanks for the responses.

I am in partial agreement on the Kodachrome, except that Dwaynes does more than just Kodachrome, and the loss of that market might not be a big concern to them. However I do question if there is enough Kodachrome film being used in the United States to keep a lab that does only Kodachrome going.

Kodak sends their Kodachrome film to the lab in Switzerland, or at least they have been which is why it always takes so long to get back. Now they are going to start sending it to Dwaynes.

I’m going to test the market out here in San Francisco to see if people even want a B&W Reversal lab here they can go to. If there’s enough people contacting me about it, I’ll let you all know. I’m pretty psyched about the prospect of having my own lab.

[downix]

something I noticed is the lack of a B&W film lab anywhere in the southeast, for any gague film. I see a market opportunity if someone were to get ahold of it.

[studiocarter]

That is very much like what I wanted to do. Only I was going to make Regular 8mm prints and 16mm prints. Black and White is great and develops to negative easily. My Uhler 8/16mm Cine Printer would make the contact prints. It runs 400 ft rolls so a splice would be needed every 400 feet. I've made 16mm high contrast contact animation line prints that would be nice for titles. They had solid black you could not see through and perfectly clear whites. Try doing that. Live action R8 came out nicely from reversal developed to negative, too.
Go for it. I'd buy it in a heart beat if I had the money. Well, I have the CREDIT.
There are not many B&W labs that make work prints let alone R8 ones.
Too bad I passed up purchasing the S8 version. :oops:

Where would you do it? I mean, not near the baby, right?

Michael

[Konton]

I think I responded to this already in a private e-mail or something. Didn't I? Because I do remember responding. Oh well.

Anyway I'm now in the process of selling stuff to get the money to make this happen. Anyone want some single 8 stuff? I'm selling my Cinesub for a Beaulieu 7008 as we speak. *sigh* I'm going to miss it. It was a good doorstop.

[Konton]

Hey Michael,

Hmmm . . . . I guess I did respond. I just didn't send this.

Where did you get a Uhler 8/16mm Cine Printer? I have been looking for a Super 8 version for a while now! The one you have doesn't do Super 8? I take it the sprocketing must be different.

I wanted to do contact prints. But with the WorkPrinter-Pro and a Supermag400, I can do optical prints up to 400ft. If I can get the B&W lab going then it will be worth it. I just with Kodak was willing to sell 400ft reels of Super 8. Oh well.

What baby?

[ccortez]

I've been thinking about doing exactly the same thing, though I am also interested n processing the color reversal film. Less so now that the Ektachromes are cancelled... But still...

Would the Houston Feerless Colormaster 16mm that Steve at Rocky Mtn is selling also work for Super 8 Color and/or B&W process?

If so, I might be interested in joining/investing in your endeavor. I am a filmmaker in Austin, TX maybe moving to Portland, OR.

Anyway, let's talk more... I've got a jones for developing my own stock as well, and I'm having trouble coming up with a source of long roll tanks and reels... ;-)

cpc@slowkid.com

[super8man]

As a user, I send my B&W to yale. Both 16mm and super/reg 8. I also have them telecine the 16mm.

If there was a reputable option in the Bay Area, that would be nice. Nicer still to make an excuse to drive down to pick it up, etc. The main point is being reliable since processing is really a one shot deal. You screw it up and there is no second chance. So far, Yale Labs bats a 1000 for me...price is the only thing that would make me change. Sort of like what Roger said, I would hate to see a good thing go wrong due to good intentions getting in the way. As long as you have done your homework on the potential customer base (and a realistic percentage share you could acquire), you should be ok. Personally, I think there is room for processing B&W in Northern California.

I am looking forward to sending you some "test" film if you do indeed pull this off. Best of luck.

m

[Nigel]

There are a bunch of B&W S8 labs....There are a couple in NYC, one in VA, one in MN, one in MI--Those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head. So if you live in Florida and send your film to Canada you just haven't done any leg work.

Good Luck

PS--As for the lab in Portland it closed last year (maybe two years ago) due to a lack of business.

[Konton]

The Houston Feerless Colormaster 16mm that Steve at Rocky Mtn is selling is like 12 feet long! No way would that fit in my bathroom. Well . . . not my current bathroom. Anyway yes, it will do both Ektachrome and B&W Reversal. You should give him a call.

You should try and develop film. I'm starting with B&W because it's much more forgiving. I've gotten good results hand developing, so I'm hoping moving to an actual automated processing system will not be too difficult.

I have looked at my customer base in the San Francisco city limits and I think there is enough business from the schools and independent filmmakers to make a profit. Students here complain all the time how a week is too long to wait for their film to come back and how they would like it back the next day. I think they would pay extra for that, mainly because their project is due and they need it ASAP. As for doing a good job processing, I'm not concerned. I'm sure I need to learn the system on whatever I get, but I'm not worried about problems. I've always considered myself a profectionist and I plan on keeping my work area for developement as clean as possible.

Nigel, Both LA and Seattle (not to mention Portland) are far enough away that there is a immideate demand in my local area. I think this is mainly due to the number of art colleges in the area. If I lived in a small town it might be different. But I live around downtown San Francisco in a live/work loft in a 6 block walking distance from Monaco Labs, Photographer's Supply, Adolph Gassers, Film Arts Foundation, the NAATA, SF Art Institute, The Academy of Art College, and a bunch of other places that would be happy to point their customers to where I live for development. Anyway it's because of that I'm thinking of at least trying a B&W Lab.

I could not help but notice that Eric Martin Jarvies is selling his B&W processor online:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 3840145264

Anyone ever heard of this model? I've tried to contact Eric but he doesn't seem to be answering e-mails.