Bolex 'B' & 'P' Regular 8 cameras - no loops?

[mr_x]

The Nizo Heliomatic is another 8mm camera that uses a sprocket drive. It's a little smaller and lighter than the H8 if you want something more portable.

Does it form loops though, please?

[Tommy]

I have owned a number of standard 8mm cameras....even the cheapest ones costing less than 1/10th of the price of P1 have all produced perfectly steady pictures (back in the 60 and 70s). I have never experienced jerk as you describe.

[mr_x]

I have owned a number of standard 8mm cameras....even the cheapest ones costing less than 1/10th of the price of P1 have all produced perfectly steady pictures (back in the 60 and 70s). I have never experienced jerk as you describe.

Indeed. Thanks Tommy, but it's not only what I describe? The reason I posted here was for advice: good forum!

Thanks again,

Ric

[BAC]

The Nizo Heliomatic is another 8mm camera that uses a sprocket drive. It's a little smaller and lighter than the H8 if you want something more portable.

Does it form loops though, please?

The Nizo does not have a loop former like the Bolex H8, you form the loops when you thread it.

[cameratech]

I've tested out quite a few reg 8 cameras and the Bolex pocket series are definitely among the best. Very steady and reliable, especially if you give them a little service (which you can find described here: http://cinetinker.blogspot.com.au/).

The lack of a sprocket-driven film loop doesn't seem to be a problem if the take-up is slipping properly. The 'furry' cylinder at the bottom of the gate acts quite well as a break against the gentle tug of the take-up, and the spring roller at the top of the gate allows the intermittant pull of the claw to draw from the feed spool without jerking. Obviously a loop as found in 16mm cameras (and the Bolex H8 among other 8mm models) is a more reliable design, but it doesn't necessarily mean that a loop-free camera will be unsteady. I've actually found some regular 8 cameras with sprocket-drive loops were less steady than the pocket Bolex ones.

But if you're interested, some regular 8 cameras I've come across that use a sprocket-drive film loop are:

the very first reg 8, Cine Kodak 8
most Nizos, including the Heliomatic, going back to the Cine Nizo 8E from 1933
Ditmar models, also from the 30s
Emel
Leveque LD8
Meopta Admira models
some Revere models
and prob some others I can't recall right now

Most of them tend to be early, when they were still copying 16mm design principles. As time went by, designers found that a sprocket-drive loop wasn't necessary with regular 8, so you won't find it in even top of-the-shelf models from the 60s (except the H8, but then that actually first came out in 1938).

[71er]

Dom, this is a great service instruction you have put online! Thanks a lot!

[mr_x]

Many thanks, Dom -

It seems obvious to me that I have a problem with that P1 if it's not unusual to expect a smooth result from these cameras. Diagnostic might be that the image actually seems to move backwards and forwards slightly as well, if has me totally foxed I must admit. But I am sure a thorough service would probably cure all these glitches.

http://youtu.be/MM5qogY1rnM

The P1 was on a heavy, metal tripod despite the hand-held appearance of the filming.

I quite like the camera motion in a way, because it lends itself to the antiquated subject matter - but I'd like to know what is causing it?

Thanks again,

Ric

[cameratech]

Well I guess the first step is to rule out problems with the projector or transfer method. If you have projected other footage on the same projector that was steady then you can probably say it's not that. Worth checking your film for perforation damage too.

There's a simple method to check a camera's steadiness, if you don't mind using up 20 or 30 seconds worth of film. You set the camera up on a solid base and film a test chart with a grid pattern. Set the focal length to medium, say 15mm, at a distance that fills the camera frame with the chart. Then rewind the film, twist the chart a little, and film it again. If you're keen you can film at different speeds for the second pass (marking the different speeds on the chart as a reference), and see how that affects steadiness, but you might need to use more than 30 seconds. What you'll get is a double exposure with 2 grids slightly askew from one another. When you view the footage, watch for deviations between the 2 grids. Don't be distracted by the entire image steadiness, because that will be from the projector (or transfer), just look at the gaps between the 2 grid patterns.

If the grids move up and down relative to one another, the camera is unsteady vertically - along the gate - which is probably the take-up pulling or the feed jamming. There could be other reasons, something interfering with the film travel, a gummed up gate or too much pressure from the pressure plate etc, but I've found it's usually the feed or take-up. Quite commonly it's a damaged or oversized feed spool, although the pocket Bolexes have more tolerance for slightly too thick spools than some other cameras.

If the grids are moving side to side it's lateral unsteadiness, which is controlled by 2 little spring tabs on the door. I've never come across it, but they could get damaged I suppose. One is bent in further than the other, so don't mistake that for damage.

Anyway, once you've done a steady test you'll know for sure what the camera is doing, and then you can look for causes.

Hope that helps.

[mr_x]

Okay I'll do it.

This defect, whatever it is, is deviling, for - because the film is unstable apparently in three dimensions, you can't easily focus on it afterwards. I mean you freeze a frame and focus in tight on the actual film grain, then as soon as you set the projector running you are back into soft focus again. I wondered about the projector pinching the film?

However, I transferred some Standard 8 found footage a while ago and it was comparatively stable.

http://youtu.be/HEWfjVKZDyc

As I say 'foxed'.

R

[mr_x]

This is negative footage reversed in software - developed in D76, hand processed - & as with all my hand-processing rather rough in outcome. It is Super 8 Tri-X but transferred on a dual 8 projector, the same one used (repeatedly) for the P1 footage.

http://youtu.be/gK5mp0QXCcA

What I notice is the Standard 8, St Vitus' Dance effect is absent, other than the mild Super 8 Shake sometimes caused by those plastic cartridges with their built-in pressure plates.

This means the effect is either caused by the camera or by the film itself - FomaPan 2x8 - and that would mean the sprocket holes. However, I shot some Standard 8 'Chrome' colour film a while ago on the P1 and the result was the same, wobbly gate effect.

Ye gads.

[mr_x]

Heh!

Look what I dredged up!!

Sun Mar 20, 2005 4:59 pm

"In this thread there are two Foma examples. If you look with care, you see the frame isn't steady. When I shot with the Kodak K25 (I'm waiting the K40...) the frame is like a rock!"

http://forum.filmshooting.com/viewtopic ... 969#p72938

:!:

But time will tell - I need to do some more tests - unfortunately I am tied up for a while now, but later! as they say.

Ric

[mr_x]

Update:

Here's some Standard 8 I transerred two days ago, old home movie footage from the 60s/70s. The first clip is using my 'new' tabletop method of mounting the cam to the projector; the second clip is when I go back to using a floor mounted tripod.

http://youtu.be/4dPkZWDeCwA

Lost that gdarned gate wobble!

Eumig S807D to Panasonic NV-GS500 firewired to XP Pro http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p32/ ... ac6162.jpg

Ric

[marc]

Sorry, I meant AXIS not Access!

[Shanec8mm]

I own several Bolex cameras that include the B8, P1, P4, and the K2. I've only shot film using both the P4 and the K2. Both extremely great cameras that produce amazing results! The footage from both are rock solid. I think your problem here is 2 things. First, if you haven't done so yet, it's time to open the P1 and add some lubricate. 2 you also need to rejuvenate the leather covered slip disc near the take-up spool. The leather becomes hard and needs to be softened. I use, from other's recommendations, lighter fluid to return the leather to a subtle state.Also as mentioned without lubrication inside the camera it's going to run rough and produce all kinds of jumps, bumps, and unsteady footage. These cameras are 50+ years old now so performance is not what it was then. To take these cameras apart requires some patience's, and the proper tools. Access to the internals is not that difficult. Here's a great tutorial for taking these little guys apart. http://cinetinker.blogspot.com/2013/01/ ... x-d8l.html Once you do this the camera should run just great. As mentioned do not forget to lubricate that little leather slip disc. You must take it off in order to properly lubricate the spindle shaft underneath. One drop of oil is all you need. Good luck hope this helps!

[Shanec8mm]

Wanted to add I wouldn't go any further with the instructions than the part that mentions lubricating the inside. I have found there is no need to take the winding mechanism apart. I have not done so myself and it looks a bit tricky. What I have done to loosen up the winding is by adding some oil near the edges of the winding key mechanism, side of camera, while still assembled.