To Can or Not To Can?

[David M. Leugers]

I thought I'd share a recent experience I had with old film. It applies to the question of should films be stored in a can. I received several thousand feet of R-8mm film dating from the late 1930's up through the late 1940's to transfer.
I was told the films had not seen daylight for over 50 years. The films that were mounted on metal reels kept inside very tightly fitting cans were in a remarkable state of preservation. The films were pliable and dimensionally stable. The films that were stored in cardboard boxes were all very brittle, shrunken, and curled. These were from the late 40's with three 50 foot rolls from the 1970's... No vinegar syndrome present on any of them. They were all stored in the same location and circumstance. I have always put my films on good reels and in cans. Almost 40 years after the first ones, they all remain in like new condition. Just my two cents.

[slashmaster]

Interesting! So I presume you're counting the 8mm plastic reeled 50 footers with windows on just one side and the single plastic lid going over it as canned?

[David M. Leugers]

Yes because the film is not exposed to the air like in a cardboard box that can breath, or to the elements if the reel is stored in the open. However, storing film on 50ft reels is not ideal due to the small hub diameter of the reel. Better to store on at least a 200ft reel.

[Andreas Wideroe]

Interesting. Especially since the general recommendation from many archives is to put films in cans that breathe.

/Andreas

[David M. Leugers]

If in a temperature and humidity controlled storage environment I can see it as a compromise for VS suppression. My main concern is for 8/S8/16mm reversal originals. I believe the main culprit in the VS problem is faulty processing, usually due to high speed volume production of prints. There seems to be a belief that all film will eventually turn VS, but there are films now that are closing in on 130 years old with no signs of VS. I personally have never seen a 8mm, S-8mm or 16mm reversal original with VS. I have shot 10's of thousands of feet of said film and have handled much more of others reversal films. I have handled a great deal of dried out, shrunken and curled reversal film = virtually all of it stored outside a can. I recently handled reversal S-8mm film that was so shrunken it was impossible to splice. The film would no longer fit on the two pins to hold the film in place due to the shrunken perf spacing... when film even approaches this state you get torn sprockets,ripped film etc.
When the info first came out about the dangers of VS to film life and the need to ventilate films, I had a panic attack. I had used the practice of not only storing my films in a can , but to tape seal the can. I had irreplaceable home movie originals stored this way unopened for years. When I opened the cans, the films were in perfect condition. For me, I put 'em in cans.

[slashmaster]

I was wondering if any of you guys have anything to say about how tight a film should be rewound before putting away for a while? Do any of you guys squeeze the take up spindle as it rewinds so it rewinds tighter?

[super8man]

I do not recommend having TIGHT reels - it induces too much memory curl into the film. The film should be relatively LOOSE on the storage reel.

On storage reels, only use plastic. TOSS THE METAL ONES. They can rust with humidity and are otherwise easily bent and place unnecessary burden on the film (scraping the edges in most cases).

As for VS, I have seen VS in 8mm films and it's the nastiest stuff you come across. I too believe it is either processing induced or cheap unstable film stock induced. Otherwise, the biggest worry you have is on ektachrome films turning that hideous green.

Good luck.

[Will2]

Could a wash before transfer help in keeping VS away in the long term?

If poor processing is responsible is that because chemicals are left on the film and perhaps a wash would remove it?

[slashmaster]

Thanks Super8man. This is interesting. I guess it's all a trade off. If I keep my films on the 50 foot reels they come back on, they are curled too tight and showing only 3 minutes at a time is bad for the projector bulb. But If I put them all on a 400 foot or bigger reel, the whole film can only last the length of the weakest link in the chain. Do any of you guys know what kind of film is most likely to get VS? Is it high asa? Low Asa? Kodachrome? Ektachrome?

[slashmaster]

Oh Yeah, I also wanted to know, If I'm likely to spread VS to other films by using the same projector for them all?

[super8man]

You worry too much. Today's films are unlikely to get it...the films I came across were from the 40s and 50s. Most of us will have passed away before any current films experience this...Just a wildassed guess!

In short, just shoot film, store on plastic reels, and enjoy them from time to time.

[Will2]

One transfer house I've used for Super 8 and Regular 8 (Debenham Media Group) combines the order on to one GIANT plastic reel, does the transfer, then vacuum seals the reel in plastic with one of those machines that sucks all the air out... I wonder if that really provides any long term advantage for archiving?

I have a set of 16mm metal cans, reels and a metal case (aluminum maybe?) from the 50's that are in perfect shape; guess I should go to plastic.

[David M. Leugers]

As for VS, I have seen VS in 8mm films

Was this home movie footage, i.e. 8mm reversal original? I have never seen that, but have seen the rare 8mm print of a theatrical film that was VS.

[David M. Leugers]

As far as reels go, for many years I was not a fan of plastic reels. Especially for 16mm. 8/S8 plastic reels got pretty good with Bonum and Gepe maybe a few others. Now while a good metal reel is certainly serviceable, I now put all my really valuable 8/S8 films on the new Tuscan reels and cans. Tuscan makes the best reels hands down. Even their 16mm plastic reels are the best plastic reels out there, but I still prefer metal reels for my favored 16mm films. I have never had a metal reel damage a film, nor have I had one rust. I tend to use new reels but if not, I inspect the reel before use for any bends or missing paint. If a metal reel is rusting due to excess humidity, the reel itself is not the major worry for your film...

I have always wound film onto a reel evenly and with enough back pressure (resistance) for the film to be wound snugly and flat without sinching or stressing the film. I put a piece of tape on the leader end to prevent any unwinding. If the film is loose enough, the film can start to cup, curl or twist
which is often the culprit when a film can not hold focus across the image when projected. To help relieve the film from taking a set from being coiled on the reel, from time to time I use a cleaner/conditioner like Filmrenew and wind the film wet switching the orientation of the emulsion and base sides. I let it air dry before winding back onto its reel correctly.

I guess reels come down to one's preference and as long as they do their job you can not argue the choice.

[slashmaster]

If the film is loose enough, the film can start to cup, curl or twist
which is often the culprit when a film can not hold focus across the image when projected.

When you say cup twirl or twist, do you mean the whole film becomes convex from edge to edge on the lens side of the gate and concave on the bulb side? Just like a metal spring tape measure unreeled from its cartridge? All the film I have seems to be like this and yes, it seems like when I get the center of the film nice and sharp the right and left side are a little out of focus. So I compromise by focusing somewhere in between.